The Law Of Addiction

February 4, 2020


Welcome to Recovery Radio by Landmark Recovery with your host, Zach Crouch. In this program we’ll discuss the root causes and treatments of alcohol and substance addiction, speak with experts in related fields, and help navigate the road to recovery.

 

Now, here’s the host of Recovery Radio, Zach Crouch.

 

Zach: Hello. I’m Zach Crouch, host of the Recovery Radio podcast, your source for addiction and recovery news and knowledge. If you know someone struggling with drugs or alcohol, Recovery Radio is here to help. We’re dedicated to providing you with the tools to help you or a loved one take the first step on the road to recovery.

 

Zach: Joining us on the show today is Daniel Robertson. Daniel is an attorney at Louisville. His practice includes representing clients who are facing drug and alcohol-related charges.

 

Welcome to the show, Daniel. I’m just grateful that you’re on the show with us today. Thank you.

 

Daniel: Thanks for having me, Zach. I’m glad to be here.

 

Zach: Just in terms of law, how long have you been practicing for?

 

Daniel: Well, that’s kind of a long story in and of itself, Zach. It should be a simple one. I recently got my law license in 2010, practiced for about three years until I was suspended because of my addiction mainly. Oddly enough, I didn’t pay my bar dues; that’s why they originally suspended my license.

 

Zach: Imagine that.

 

Daniel: Yes, yes. I had better things to spend my money on, I guess. I get a lot of laughs out of that one. I was suspended for 181 days but I didn’t initially try to get my license back. Besides, I didn’t want to practice law, thought I was going to do something else. I soon realized I didn’t know how to do much else.

 

I sought reinstatement, started about two and a half years ago. That’s a pretty long process in itself, takes about a year and a half. I’ve been practicing since my reinstatement for about a year. Originally, I was admitted in 2010 but I’ve practiced a total of about four years.

 

Zach: Good. During that time where you tried to get reinstated, you mentioned you thought about doing something else, is law always been a part of your sort of passion or is it something you’ve always been really, really interested in? Was there something else that you were thinking about pursuing? What was it?

 

Daniel: Yes. Law had always been, you know what I felt like what I was called to really since I was in high school, didn’t really make a decision that I wanted to be a lawyer till about my junior year in college. Several people had told me maybe I should do something in sales and try something in the business field. I thought about that avenue after my license was suspended and I did a few other things but I just wasn’t happy in those. I think it was good taking the time off, kind of reignited my passion for the law.

 

Zach: Got you. You were in a lot of cases related to drugs and alcohol, right?

 

Daniel: I did.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: I’m saying right now I probably got, I don’t know, anywhere between 30 and 40, between DUI’s and drug, either possession or trafficking cases, probably in that range, 30 to 40.

 

Zach: Okay. Are most of your cases at the state level? Are any of them at the federal level?

 

Daniel: All at the state level right now. I’m licensed in federal court but now currently don’t have any cases over there.

 

Zach: Got you. You alluded to and you mentioned you struggled yourself with substances that’s while you’re working on these cases. What did that look like?

 

Daniel: A train wreck.

 

Zach: A dumpster fire.

 

Daniel: A dumpster fire, that’s an apt term.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Yes. It was bad. It started, let’s see, my third year of law school. I thought I’ve been diagnosed with lung cancer. I had always drank, partied quite a bit, I guess. Let’s see, it was during my third year. My best friend, a grown-up and we went to college together, lived together.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: He died of a drug overdose a week before the end of my last year in law school.

 

Zach: Right

 

Daniel: At the same time, my dad was battling lung cancer and he died just a few months thereafter.

 

Zach: Wow! How many years ago was that?

 

Daniel: That was about ten years ago now. My dad died in January of 2010 so yes, it’s almost ten years.

 

Zach: Wow. Okay.

 

Daniel: That’s what kind of, not using that as an excuse, but that’s what really started my addiction. I was so depressed that I felt like I couldn’t really go on. I was having a hard time functioning, started taking pain pills.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: That progressed to heroin, meth. Those were the two that really brought me down.

 

Zach: You and I actually met in a slightly different capacity. I was a counsellor at Bradford Health Services when I was here in Louisville. You had come through that program. That would have been 2010 or 2011, somewhere in there, 2012 maybe.

 

Daniel: Yes. That was in 2012, yes.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Yes. You guys couldn’t handle me.

 

Zach: We were ill-equipped.

 

Daniel: Ill-equipped. That was a challenge. I’m sure.

 

Zach: Yes. Did you ever feel guilty or how did you justify your actions to yourself when you were going through that phase of using?

 

Daniel: The short answer is I was too high to care.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: It progressed to the point where judges were calling me out on it.

 

Zach: They knew?

 

Daniel: Everybody knew.

 

Zach: Everybody knew?

 

Daniel: Yes. There might have been a few people who didn’t know.

 

Zach: You were showing up to court and hearings drunk or high?

 

Daniel: High, yes, yes.

 

Zach: Wow!

 

Daniel: I didn’t really drink at all during that time period. It was all drugs.

 

Zach: Did you ever nod off, like in the court?

 

Daniel: Not in court.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: People have had to remind me of some stories here over the last couple of years that, one woman in particular, secretary at her office said that I passed out sitting in a chair in her office one day.

 

Zach: Wow. Wow. That’s a really far cry from where you are today.

 

Daniel: Yes. It got as bad as it could get.

 

Zach: I’m a guy who is I would say, in long-term recovery at this point. I lived under, I’m sure you did, too, this delusion that if I could just simply get through the day that I’ll make it. I’ll get through it. Stuff will pass over, whatever, right? I’m often, as many people are, the last to know. When did you realize that you have had a problem?

 

Daniel: Oh, I wouldn’t say I knew that I had a problem a good six months to a year before I got honest about it and tell people that I needed help. It got to a point where I couldn’t go to work if I didn’t have dope. That’s when I knew it was…probably before that, I probably knew.

 

Zach: The physical dependence was certainly there.

 

Daniel: Yes, yes. It didn’t matter if I had to be in court or where I had to be. If I didn’t have dope, I was going to get that first.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: That was my priority because I knew I wasn’t going to get through the day without it.

 

Zach: Absolutely.

 

Daniel: My attempts to quit on my own during that time, I can recall that fairly vividly, oddly enough because a lot of it is pretty cloudy.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I do recall a couple of days that I tried to stop. I just laid on my couch in pain and crying all day basically and couldn’t do anything. I felt like I was really trapped because it was a situation where I didn’t want to continue living that way but I couldn’t stop.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: That probably went on for another few months before I finally reached out for help.

 

Zach: That’s pretty common especially among people who use the particular drug that you were talking about was that they don’t really use it more to get high. They use it to simply not be well, to get right as many people would put it. Let’s talk about this a little bit. What were some of the repercussions while you were using? What did that look like for you?

 

Daniel: I was saying the list of repercussions that I didn’t have will be shorter. It’s much shorter. You name it and it happened.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: Any consequence from addiction that you can experience, I probably did. Initially, I went to treatment in…I finally got honest with the guys I work with. They had asked me a couple of times, “Listen, if you’re struggling with something, if you’re having a problem just in a generic sense, you can come to us. We’ll help.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: I said, “I’m fine. I’m fine.” A couple of weeks later I finally told one of them, “Yes, I’ve got a drug problem.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: He said, “Yes. We all know that. We’re just glad to hear you finally say it.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel:  Initially, I didn’t really have any…

 

Zach: This is the first time that you told the folks about it?

 

Daniel: Yes, yes.

 

Zach: This would have been 2012?

 

Daniel: This would have been in, yes, August of 2012.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: I called Yvette Harrigan with KYLAP. I think Yvette had called me once before. Somebody had called her and said they had concerns. Of course, I denied it, “I’m fine.”

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Finally in August, I called her. She got me in down in Bradford.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: I went down there. At this point, I have had a couple of bar complaints but nothing that couldn’t be handled. I went down there and came back, stayed clean for probably a month and I guess it’s around the time I met you.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: I was coming to the out-p out there in Bradford. I started using again and it deteriorated so much faster that time. Yes. I went downhill quick, really, really quick then I didn’t pay my bar dues, got suspended. I went back to treatment down to Bradford again, left. After about a day, I just walked out.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I ended up in Minnesota in Hazelden.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: While I was at Hazelden, the KBA suspended my license for non-payment of bar dues.

 

Zach: Okay. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the drinking and the using?

 

Daniel: No, no. There was no drinking at this time. It was strictly drugs.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: I was nothing but drugs during that period. I’ve had my issues with alcohol and everything else, too but during this period it was strictly the drugs. That happened. It had nothing to do with any bar complaints or anything like that. It was just my own ignorance in not paying my bar dues.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: My wife at the time, probably a week after that, filed for divorce while I was up there.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: I got served with papers in Minnesota.

 

Zach: While you were in treatment?

 

Daniel: While I was in treatment.

 

Zach: Wow.

 

Daniel: Yes.

 

Zach: Wow!

 

Daniel: Yes, yes. I took a couple of hits right there.

 

Zach: Kicked in the teeth right there it was.

 

Daniel: Yes. It was, for sure. It was for the best I found out later. I came back home from Minnesota, lost my house. She got the house. I was essentially homeless, didn’t have a law license.

 

Zach: Wow.

 

Daniel: I lost my office, lost…

 

Zach: Your car?

 

Daniel: I did have a car.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: I did have a car. It stayed there in the house for a week or so until I went and retrieved it. That’s basically all I had was a car and the clothes on my back.

 

Zach: Clothes on your back, yes. Wow.

 

Daniel: I ended up moving in with my brother back in Hawesville where I’m originally from, for a while. Any consequence you can imagine, I probably had it.

 

Zach: Check. Check.

 

Daniel: Check. Yes, it’s a long list.

 

Zach: Wow. Some people might call this just, I don’t know, a piece of the experience for people who are able to now help out others who have been down similar roads because it says that you work with many of your clients to help them find treatment. How does that work? You’re a lawyer but you’re helping people and I think rightfully, so help them find treatment, to get places. What does that look like?

 

Daniel: It happens in a lot of different ways really. Occasionally and actually not very often, this is definitely the exception, a client would tell me, “Hey man, this is a problem,” whether it be alcohol or drugs or whatever. That has only happened maybe once or twice.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Usually, it’s a family member. They will tell me, “Hey, they’ve got this problem. Is there anything you can do?”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: That’s usually how it happens. Sometimes, the court whether it be the prosecutor or the judge or whoever will inquire about, “Is this something that’s a problem?” That doesn’t happen often either. More often than not, it’s a family member who will call me, who has come in for their consultation or whatever, will call me later and say, “Hey, this is a real problem that we need to address. Is there anything that you can do?”

 

I think a lot of the times what they want me to do is to try to get the courts to force them into some kind of treatment which I always tell them it’s not the way to go because, as you and I both know, forcing somebody into treatment…

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: A lot of times, for me anyway, that didn’t work.

 

Zach: Got it. When you get these calls, like from a family member, is it typically like, is it the husband or the wife that’s calling you or is it the mom or the dad?

 

Daniel: All those. Yes. It’s usually their spouse or a parent depending on the person’s age or marital status. Yes, it’s usually always a spouse or a parent.

 

Zach: Got it. Okay. Will a client enter rehab program before or after or in place of serving a sentence from the court?

 

Daniel: All of the above on that. Oftentimes, and I’ll tell people if this is something that we can address whether they’ve been just arrested for DUI or for drug possession especially if it’s not their first offense, I’ll usually tell them, “Hey, if this is a problem, we can address it.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: “You need to do it now because it’s going to look a lot better on your part to go ahead and address this now so we can show the Commonwealth and the court later on when it comes to a potential plea deal or sentencing or whatever it is that you know that this is a problem, that you voluntarily addressed it early on the process rather than waiting until you were looking at the prospect of jail time.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: “And then decided to go get treatment,” or something along those lines.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: It kind of happens all those ways. I say, “I’ve tried to get people in before if I can.” A lot of times, it is in place of serving a sentence. There are definitely a lot of good judges in Jefferson County, in particular and out of state who understand addiction and understand alcoholism. A lot of them really do want to help people. If they can send somebody to treatment as opposed to jail, that’s always preferable.

 

Zach: I guess I’m going to ask you. Was it the past year that there was a clause that went through, I think Mothers Against Drunk Driving has something to do with this, too, but there was a number of DUI’s that if you had in a certain amount of time that automatically sent you to prison or took away your license?

 

How does that work? What happened? Do you know what I’m talking about? I thought there was more like, it used to be if you got three or seven DUI’S…

 

Daniel: Oh, yes.

 

Zach: Do you know what I’m talking about?

 

Daniel: Yes. What they’ve done is they changed. A fourth offense is a felony if it’s within a specified period of time.

 

Zach: Which is how long?

 

Daniel: That used to be five years.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: If you got a fourth DUI in a five-year period, that was a class D felony.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: Now they’ve made that look back ten years.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: They’ve really hard lined the law in that respect that if you had a DUI ten years ago, that still counts within that window and it could be the day before that ten years is up, you get number four, you’ll get a felony.

 

Zach: What does that mean?

 

Daniel: You’re looking at a lot…

 

Zach: Time in prison?

 

Daniel: Potentially, yes, yes.

 

Zach: How much? How much time?

 

Daniel: A minimum of one. That’s one to five.

 

Zach: One year?

 

Daniel: Yes, yes. Misdemeanors are crimes that are punishable by up to 365 days in jail.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: A class D felony is one to five. I mean, potentially you could get five years for a fourth offense DUI particularly if there’s an accident involved where somebody’s hurt or if there are aggravating circumstances present which there are a whole list of in the statute…

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: That being one of them. Yes, you could potentially get five years on there.

 

Zach: Okay, okay. Do you see a lot of guys and gals coming through that qualify for that? Like in Louisville and Jefferson County, are there a lot of people?

 

Daniel: We see several. We see several, yes.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: I mean, I would say right now we’ve probably got two or three that have been looking at felonies. Sometimes, we’re able to get that amended down to a third offense or to a misdemeanor.

 

Zach: A misdemeanor.

 

Daniel: Yes, where they don’t count it as a fourth offense and a felony.

 

Zach: I know that you’re not a therapist. I’m not asking you to make a diagnosis.

 

Daniel: Man, I’m not, Zach.

 

Zach: Right. In your time spending with those kinds of folk and I’m not saying they’re bad people or anything like that, but I am asking a question about what is it about those folks though that makes them, I don’t know, so sick? Are there traumatic events that have happened? Any rhyme or reason that you can point?

 

Daniel: I think it’s probably the same thing that made you and I sick.

 

Zach: Yes. Yes! Yes.

 

Daniel: That makes us all sick. It’s just the addiction and just no control over it. Some people, we’ve had one or two who were looking at felonies that still won’t go get treatment.

 

Zach: For a year in jail it’s like, “No, I’m not going to get treatment.”

 

Daniel: “I’m not going to go. I’m not going to go.”

 

Zach: Wow!

 

Daniel: “I don’t have a problem.”

 

Zach: “I don’t have a problem.”

 

Daniel: Yes. I’ve heard that many times.

 

Zach: Wow!

 

Daniel: It’s mind-blowing sometimes.

 

Zach: God! Man, that’s so sad, dude.

 

Daniel: Denial can be powerful.

 

Zach: Man! How many do take you up on the offer of seeking treatment?

 

Daniel: I would say it’s probably around 90 percent.

 

Zach: That’s a lot.

 

Daniel: Yes. The number is high of those who…and you know those are the people who admit to me that they have a problem or like I said, a family member comes to me and tells me it’s a problem and then I’ll talk to the client about it.

 

Like I said, it’s more often than not, not them just coming forward and saying, “Look, Daniel I’ve got a problem.” Believe it or not, people are always honest with their lawyer.

 

Zach: Imagine that.

 

Daniel: Shocking, right?

 

Zach: Yes, yes, yes.

 

Daniel: I would say most of them that…

 

Zach: They’re honest enough to tell you they need help though.

 

Daniel: Sometimes, yes.

 

Zach: At least…

 

Daniel: They are after they’ve been called out on it by a family member or something. Yes, most of them do.

 

Zach: One thing I’ll say is that statistically I didn’t know this but it’s true. Studies have shown this that whether a person gets coerced in the treatment or does not, that does not equal their effectiveness of being in treatment.

 

In other words, if you take two people or a hundred and 50 of them say, “I was coerced into treatment by my wife/husband,” whoever and the other 50 percent say, “I know I knew I had a problem.” There is no correlation between more success with people who say admittedly, “I have a problem,” versus those that say, “I’m here because a family member said to come.”

 

Daniel: That’s actually very surprising, yes. It kind of contradicts my earlier statement, doesn’t it when I said that doesn’t work — forcing people into treatment? That’s shocking to me actually.

 

Zach: I think that you’re, I’m going to take a stab at it, I think that you’re probably dealing, you are dealing with a subset of the population though who have gotten to that point in their lives where the law and the legal system have really played a part in their lives.

 

The rates of mental illness, antisocial behavior, stints in jail, etc. are all part of that equation, too. I can’t say if it takes that into consideration or not, but those are factors, too that you probably have to account for.

 

Daniel: I guess when somebody is facing a criminal charge and the courts say it’s jail or treatment, there’s a level of coercion there, but I’ve seen…

 

Zach: Willingness?

 

Daniel: Yes, exactly. Yes.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: I’ve seen people succeed though in that situation.

 

Zach: Do you ever share your own experience with clients?

 

Daniel: Always.

 

Zach: Okay.

 

Daniel: Always. Yes. If it comes up, if they have a problem or think they have a problem, yes, I’ll usually, always maybe not on our first meeting, maybe not the second meeting but ultimately I always generally do. If my story can help somebody, I’m more than will to share it with anybody.

 

At first I wasn’t sure about that whether clients would be hesitant to hire me because of that or whatever. I found that it’s exactly the opposite actually that people appreciate that I know what they’re going through.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I actually had a client not too long ago who said, “Man, you just don’t know how hard it is to get off heroin.” I said, “Let me tell you a story. Let me tell you a story.”

 

Zach: Contraire.

 

Daniel: Yes, yes.

 

Zach: On the contrary.

 

Daniel: I think it’s in some way it makes me uniquely qualified to handle their cases.

 

Zach: Do clients who need help ever come back and just say, “Man, thank you?” “I appreciate everything that you’ve done.”

 

Daniel: Yes, absolutely. I’ve had several who’ve done that. Those are the ones who have been the most successful in treatment and in recovery that are really grateful especially me sharing my story. That’s what I’ve probably  encountered the most is that people have come back and thanked me for telling them my own experiences and let them know that I can actually relate to where they’re at and what they’re going through.

 

Zach: Absolutely.

 

Daniel: I’ve found that people are very appreciative of that.

 

Zach: I don’t know if this has been your experience, but some people would argue it’s like, “Well, I can go through a bunch of classes. I can do a bunch of volunteer work. I can be around addicts and alcoholics and really get a sense of what it is that they’re going through,” but there is a lot to be said about kicking dope and being on a couch or wherever you were in having gone through that experience and knowing that like, “Yes, I’ve been there,” because I think that there’s a certain level of empathy that you can experience by having gone through the pain — physical and mental of that.

 

Daniel: Absolutely. Yes. I think, like I’ve said, I’ve got a unique perspective on it and one I couldn’t possibly have had I not experienced the things that I’ve gone through with my own addiction.

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: When I have a client in jail who I know is sitting there going through withdrawals from opiates, I know how painful that is. I wasn’t in jail when I went through it so I can only imagine that that magnifies the pain and the emotions that you experience.

 

I’ve definitely felt the sickness and I can bitterly recall of being down at Bradford going through withdrawals, hallucinating, sweating, just sick. I can only imagine sitting in Metro Corrections going through that.

 

Zach: God, man!

 

Daniel: It will be brutal. Yes, I do think I’ve definitely got a sense of empathy that I couldn’t possibly have without my own experiences.

 

Zach: Not just the law but people who may be, are professionals even, what would you suggest to people who are struggling in the workplace in how to seek help before it does get out of control?

 

Daniel:  Just be honest. Back to ten years ago when I went through all that, eight years ago, I don’t know how long it’s been now. Seven, I guess.

 

I guess eight when I first started with the addiction, but I was terrified to tell anybody because I hadn’t been a lawyer that long and I felt like I was trying to get myself established and prove to people what I can do. I was having some success in the courtroom. I felt like if I was honest and tell people what I was going through that it would be the end of my career.

 

Zach: Yes. You’ve already invested all this time and money, right?

 

Daniel: Right, right. I was just terrified that that would be the end of me. It really took people approaching me. I mean, it was more than once a judge called me up to the bench in court and asked me if I was okay, asked me what was going on. Obviously, I’d just lie. “Yes, I’m fine,” when it was clear to everyone that I wasn’t. It took some of my colleagues coming to me and saying, “We could get you help. Whatever you’re going through, we can get you help.”

 

Zach: Right.

 

Daniel: I remember the day that I finally said it and said, “I’m an addict. I do need help.”

 

Zach: Was it one of those days where you just felt like, was it “A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders,” or was it like, “Oh crap, man. Now the cat’s out of the bag,” or was it a little bit of both?

 

Daniel. No. It was really relieving actually.

 

Zach: Got it.

 

Daniel: Afterwards I did kind of think, “Maybe I shouldn’t have said that. Maybe I should have tried…”

 

Zach: Too late now!

 

Daniel: Yes, yes. “What have I done now?” Yes, like you said, cat’s out of the bag, but it already was anyway.

 

Zach: It’s a good point.

 

Daniel: I wasn’t telling anybody anything that they didn’t know.

 

Zach: You said your partners are like, “We know.”

 

Daniel: Everybody.

 

Zach: Yes, yes.

 

Daniel: I thought I was being sneaky and doing a good job of masking things. I was not at all.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I mean that would be my advice for anybody who is struggling in the workplace. No matter what it is, people are a lot more willing to help you than you might think. They really are. Most people truly want to help. It’s only going to get worse if you’re not honest about it.

 

Zach: When you mentioned that to your partners and maybe even other people, is there somebody that sticks out now that like, you would look back and go like, “Man, this person…I would have never expected they would have supported me the way that they did. It was unexpected but I’m just blown by how supportive they have been?” Is there a one person or a couple of people that come up?

 

Daniel: Yes, Steve Roman who I worked for during law school and have pretty much been with ever since. Steve can be a pretty intimidating guy. I don’t know if you know Steve.

 

Zach: I don’t.

 

Daniel: Great trial lawyer but he can be intimidating sometimes. I was really terrified to tell him because I looked up to him so much, still do.

 

Zach: Sure.

 

Daniel: I didn’t want him to be disappointed in me and I didn’t want to ruin the relationship that I had there. I actually told his partner first, his law partner and then I left. I told him and then I took off.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I was like, “Okay. Let’s go home to see how this plays out.” Steve texted or called me within 30 minutes and said, “You’re going to treatment.”

 

Zach: Don’t pass go?

 

Daniel: Yes. “You have no options. You’re going to treatment.”

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Yes. He’s been tremendous throughout all of this, very supportive. I definitely wouldn’t be around without him.

 

Zach: That’s crazy to just…you mentioned that just because as you were talking, I was thinking about…I think for men, for a lot of guys, it’s like, “I don’t want to upset so-and-so because I look up to them as a mentor.” Almost there’s some fatherly kind of figure stuff, too. “If I let them down, then I’m not a damned thing.”

 

Daniel: Right, right.

 

Zach: Being open and honest with those kinds of people, man we can learn I think the pride, the most about ourselves because often when we find out, like you mentioned Steve, we find out that these are just guys, too with other… they got their own issues. They got their own problems, too. Even though they present and they’ve got this bigger-than-life persona because a lot of them have to, when it gets down to it, man, they’re just trying to make it, too.

 

Daniel: Yes, absolutely. I think whether somebody has directly experienced addiction or alcoholism, most people know someone who has been affected by it.

 

Zach: Yes, a hundred percent.

 

Daniel: I’ve noticed that over the years is that I don’t know hardly anyone who hasn’t been affected by it in some way or know someone who has.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: Going back to, for someone out there that’s struggling and I know it sounds trite, but being honest is…getting honest with yourself, getting honest with other people is really the only way to kick this thing.

 

Zach: Absolutely. When you make a referral to a program, a treatment program that you have a client and you’re thinking about, what do you look for in a program?

 

Daniel: Generally, I won’t actually refer people to a program. I’m no expert. John Walsh and I talked about that the other day. I said, “I’ll just send them to you guys and let you guys run with it from there.” I don’t feel like I’m in a position to tell someone what they need or where they need to go really.

 

I feel like my role is really giving them the tools and the connections to reach out to someone who does know like you, John, Yvette Harrigan in case you’re an attorney. I have called Yvette in a couple of situations and asked her, “Hey, I’ve got a client,” even if it wasn’t an attorney. “I’ve got a client here that needs some treatment. Where can I send this person?”

 

Zach: Yvette Harrigan is the…she’s the President of the Kentucky Lawyers’ Assistance Program here in Louisville.

 

Daniel: She’s the Director of that, yes. Yes, yes. Or John, I’ll send them to John Walsh.

 

Zach: John Walsh.

 

Daniel: Yes. I think a lot of those two people. I have a lot of respect for both of them and I still go to a meeting with John.

 

Zach: That’s right.

 

Daniel: I still do John’s group once a week. He’s sold me on this BrainPaint. I don’t know if he’s talked to you about this.

 

Zach: Yes. Actually yes, we used to use that in our treatment center.

 

Daniel: Yes, yes.

 

Zach: I know a lot of people have had some success with it.

 

Daniel: Yes.

 

Zach: You’re doing it, man?

 

Daniel: Yes, whatever works, you know.

 

Zach: Yes.

 

Daniel: I tell them I was willing to give it a shot then I think I’ve seen some results. He thinks I have. As far as what I look for in a treatment program…

 

Zach: It’s probably pretty smart. Yes.

 

Daniel: Yes. I think I’ll leave that up to you guys. You’re all the experts in that field.

 

Zach: Just like you don’t want me going to your trial, man.

 

Daniel: I know but I’ll represent you in court.

 

Zach: I’ll show up in tennis shoes and jeans.

 

Daniel: Yes, I don’t want you defending me so I won’t step on your toes. Deal?

 

Zach: Deal. Daniel, man, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. I really, really appreciate it.

 

Daniel: Absolutely, Zach. I just like being here.

 

Zach: Yes. If you know someone struggling with an addiction and are searching for answers, subscribe and tune in to Recovery Radio each week for the most up-to-date information from leading experts. You can listen to Recovery Radio wherever you get your podcast.

 

Before I sign off, if you’re looking for in-patient or out-patient drug or alcohol rehab, visit landmarkrecovery.com to learn about their substance abuse programs that are saving lives and empowering families.

 

Until next week, I’m Zach Crouch with Recovery Radio wishing you well.

 

Thank you for tuning in to Recovery Radio. New content for this program is available every Tuesday at 12 NN Eastern Time and 9:00 AM Pacific Time with all episodes available on demand on the Voice America Health and Wellness Channel and through our content partners: iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn, and Google Play podcast. Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review so we can continue to create quality content to help save one million lives in the next 100 years. You don’t need to struggle through addiction alone. Live the life you’ve dreamed on the road to recovery.

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